A bit of context:
As we are all aware, before the collapse of the USSR and declassification of Soviet archives, there wasn’t a lot of information on the Eastern Front aside from the Nazi perspective, which led to the propagation of many myths which you’re all aware of, I won’t insult your intelligence.
But as we gained more information, a lot of historians on both sides of the former Berlin wall started to re-evaluate the role of the Soviets in the war and some historians even went as far as to try and rehabilitate the image of the Red Army, in spite of the litany of atrocities the Red Army did, much to Russia’s enjoyment considering that, unlike most other post-Soviet states, Russia prided that specific chapter of their history.
Then Russia invaded all their neighbours.
CloneasaurusRex on
It’s gotten to the point where I just cannot bring myself to watch any film or play any game that features the Red Army’s triumphs in the Eastern Front. I just can’t be bothered to care when we today have a vivid example of what life was like for those whom they conquered and occupied for decades after.
Proud-Armadillo1886 on
These people are not historians, they’re ideologists who can suck my historian ass.
JimmyPage27 on
Russian doesn’t even care about all of this.
Fit_Sherbet9656 on
Applies to basic competency too.
The post war wehrmacht memoirs were all about the RedArmy being this horde of ants that threw men until the nazis ran out of bullets and were kept in line by commissars. This wasn’t really true or was at least confined to the disastrous early days as desperation made the red army improve, especially under zhukov. Even in 45 it was a very callous force towards its own men, but a very very dangerous army capable of absurd feats of maneuver, engineering, logistics and misdirection. MARS, CITADEL, Bagration , all huge victories earned through intelligent planning and ruthless courage.
It wasn’t until the later half of the 2010s that this was really percolating into online history fans and then in 22, when many were viewing Russia as a dangerous opponent with a comment army…
Bayraktars killing Sam systems at will.
3000+ Turret tosses.
Meat assaults after meat assault.
The Moskva promotion.
Whole regiments encircled.
No air superiority after 2 and a half years.
Wagner almost pulling a fucking coup.
From Kyiv in 3 days to encircling the Donbass by June to holding Kherson to demands to end the 2nd battle of kursk by October 15th.
Oil plants and arsenals exploding across Russia as Ukranian drones strike without interdiction.
All on top of rampant looting, executing pows/civilians/ their own men, no medical treatment for their own injured ecocide via detonation dams, bombing civilians, holding nuke plants hostage and mass kidnapping.
The Russian armies performance is so shockingly bad, so wildly incompetent that I think if the US counterforced their nukes and started wiping out their remaining air force, Putin would just pretend it wasn’t happening instead of responding.
[deleted] on
[deleted]
Kuro2712 on
I have seen a ton of posts and stuff online regarding how the Red Army was a beast, so I’d say the rehabilitation worked for a while at least.
MC_Gorbachev on
So you’re saying historians’ evaluations of Soviet involvement in WW2 should be influenced by current politics? I.e. if Russiabad trend – then Asiatic hordes vs Wehrmacht knights, if Russiagood trend – an objective evaluation? Or what did you want to say?
redracer555 on
Before anyone says anything about sub rules, it’s worth pointing out that the meme does not mention any recent wars. For all someone scrolling by could tell, this could be referencing the Chechnyan Wars.
Aestboi on
The Red Army wasn’t just Russians… the current situation is more like the remnants of the Red Army dashing each other to bits because of the Putin’s delusions of grandeur.
LineOfInquiry on
The USSR certainly did a lot of bad things throughout its history and collapsed for a reason, but the re-evaluation of it in the 90’s and 2000’s was warranted given the opening of the Soviet archives and showed how extremely off base many mainstream western ideas about the history of the country were. For instance, people used to say that Stalin killed 30 million people. After the opening of the Soviet archives, that was re-evaluated with the new data that showed he killed 10-12 million. Still an awful guy, but the lower estimates of his death rate were ultimately the ones that bore out. You had this sort of re-evaluation all across soviet life and history from a western perspective.
Don_Camillo005 on
very nuanced meme, especially with your context. and i fear for it being taken out of context.
Broad_Project_87 on
Historians… Yes!
Hollywood and Washington….. no… fuck no. Seriously thouse two stuck cotton in their ears and screamed ‘LaLAlALaICAnThErRYoU”. Seriously, some of the worst offenders were in the 2000s. Not to mention Western actions afterwards especially with Yugoslavia (say what you want about that regime, they didn’t attack NATO first) and more damningly, Libya, Gadaffi may have been an asshole who absolutely still had shit to answer for, but the intervention in that revolution signled two things to everyone in the non-NATO sphere:
1. the US will not keep any promises and attempts at friendly relations (short of being amalgamated into the US’s sphere) are futile.
2. the US will (without shame) pull from the exact same playbook that they used to turn South America into a total hellscape during the cold war. and use the same stuff against you.
the consequences have been very far reaching and not just in relation to Russia: this shit is also why North Korea has doubled down on the development of Nuclear weapons.
EDIT: downvote me all you want, it won’t make the failures of the Western world in that time period go away.
14 Comments
A bit of context:
As we are all aware, before the collapse of the USSR and declassification of Soviet archives, there wasn’t a lot of information on the Eastern Front aside from the Nazi perspective, which led to the propagation of many myths which you’re all aware of, I won’t insult your intelligence.
But as we gained more information, a lot of historians on both sides of the former Berlin wall started to re-evaluate the role of the Soviets in the war and some historians even went as far as to try and rehabilitate the image of the Red Army, in spite of the litany of atrocities the Red Army did, much to Russia’s enjoyment considering that, unlike most other post-Soviet states, Russia prided that specific chapter of their history.
Then Russia invaded all their neighbours.
It’s gotten to the point where I just cannot bring myself to watch any film or play any game that features the Red Army’s triumphs in the Eastern Front. I just can’t be bothered to care when we today have a vivid example of what life was like for those whom they conquered and occupied for decades after.
These people are not historians, they’re ideologists who can suck my historian ass.
Russian doesn’t even care about all of this.
Applies to basic competency too.
The post war wehrmacht memoirs were all about the RedArmy being this horde of ants that threw men until the nazis ran out of bullets and were kept in line by commissars. This wasn’t really true or was at least confined to the disastrous early days as desperation made the red army improve, especially under zhukov. Even in 45 it was a very callous force towards its own men, but a very very dangerous army capable of absurd feats of maneuver, engineering, logistics and misdirection. MARS, CITADEL, Bagration , all huge victories earned through intelligent planning and ruthless courage.
It wasn’t until the later half of the 2010s that this was really percolating into online history fans and then in 22, when many were viewing Russia as a dangerous opponent with a comment army…
Bayraktars killing Sam systems at will.
3000+ Turret tosses.
Meat assaults after meat assault.
The Moskva promotion.
Whole regiments encircled.
No air superiority after 2 and a half years.
Wagner almost pulling a fucking coup.
From Kyiv in 3 days to encircling the Donbass by June to holding Kherson to demands to end the 2nd battle of kursk by October 15th.
Oil plants and arsenals exploding across Russia as Ukranian drones strike without interdiction.
All on top of rampant looting, executing pows/civilians/ their own men, no medical treatment for their own injured ecocide via detonation dams, bombing civilians, holding nuke plants hostage and mass kidnapping.
The Russian armies performance is so shockingly bad, so wildly incompetent that I think if the US counterforced their nukes and started wiping out their remaining air force, Putin would just pretend it wasn’t happening instead of responding.
[deleted]
I have seen a ton of posts and stuff online regarding how the Red Army was a beast, so I’d say the rehabilitation worked for a while at least.
So you’re saying historians’ evaluations of Soviet involvement in WW2 should be influenced by current politics? I.e. if Russiabad trend – then Asiatic hordes vs Wehrmacht knights, if Russiagood trend – an objective evaluation? Or what did you want to say?
Before anyone says anything about sub rules, it’s worth pointing out that the meme does not mention any recent wars. For all someone scrolling by could tell, this could be referencing the Chechnyan Wars.
The Red Army wasn’t just Russians… the current situation is more like the remnants of the Red Army dashing each other to bits because of the Putin’s delusions of grandeur.
The USSR certainly did a lot of bad things throughout its history and collapsed for a reason, but the re-evaluation of it in the 90’s and 2000’s was warranted given the opening of the Soviet archives and showed how extremely off base many mainstream western ideas about the history of the country were. For instance, people used to say that Stalin killed 30 million people. After the opening of the Soviet archives, that was re-evaluated with the new data that showed he killed 10-12 million. Still an awful guy, but the lower estimates of his death rate were ultimately the ones that bore out. You had this sort of re-evaluation all across soviet life and history from a western perspective.
very nuanced meme, especially with your context. and i fear for it being taken out of context.
Historians… Yes!
Hollywood and Washington….. no… fuck no. Seriously thouse two stuck cotton in their ears and screamed ‘LaLAlALaICAnThErRYoU”. Seriously, some of the worst offenders were in the 2000s. Not to mention Western actions afterwards especially with Yugoslavia (say what you want about that regime, they didn’t attack NATO first) and more damningly, Libya, Gadaffi may have been an asshole who absolutely still had shit to answer for, but the intervention in that revolution signled two things to everyone in the non-NATO sphere:
1. the US will not keep any promises and attempts at friendly relations (short of being amalgamated into the US’s sphere) are futile.
2. the US will (without shame) pull from the exact same playbook that they used to turn South America into a total hellscape during the cold war. and use the same stuff against you.
the consequences have been very far reaching and not just in relation to Russia: this shit is also why North Korea has doubled down on the development of Nuclear weapons.
EDIT: downvote me all you want, it won’t make the failures of the Western world in that time period go away.
“Historians”