WW2 was one of the very few cases in history where there is a *clear* bad guy
SweetExpression2745 on
Surely takes guts to look at Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany and say ”this situation is morally grey”
Polak_Janusz on
Sometimes history is complex and sometimes its more obvious.
Lower_Saxony on
The nazis were bad yes that’s a cold take.
But were the allies good? Hard no, maybe significantly less bad.
I mean, guys we’re not talking about Star Wars here this way of thinking is actually pretty stupid.
One_of_many_slavs on
*laughs in german in NATO hq*
Nuttenhunter on
Objectively better? Yes, definitely.
Good? No.
FrenchieB014 on
Well yeah America, China, Britain, (free) France, the commonwealth Poland and all of the gouvernement in exile (Belgium, Norway, Holland etc) were cleary good guys and they had the most moral high ground.
But then there the Soviet union which sometime does blurr the line on who were the good and bad guys in ww2..
However i do believe that the Average soviet (either partisans or regular) were in the right to defend their homeland and family during the invasion.
Edit: oh boy it started..
Nopetynope12 on
Who’s ever said WW2 was morally grey? (Besides Holocaust deniers?)
transjohndeere on
The human desire to create simple macrocategories for absolutely everything is the bane of my existence. The allies acted in self interest, and that is all.
FakeElectionMaker on
The Allies were only United in their goal to stop evil from conquering the world
Neo_Trotsky on
The crimes of the allies were civil bombing, rape and killing, Hiroshima + Nagasaki
The crimes of the Axis were all of the above (except Hiroshima and Nagasaki) + ethnic genocide and human experiments. So yeah, the allies were the good ones
OkMuffin8303 on
Lots of wars are morally Grey and based primarily or solely on the whims of the ruling class of either side. WW2 was not one of those wars
wombles_wombat on
Finland (Axis) vs USSR (Allies)
WW2 was an imperialist war. It wasn’t about “good democracy and bad totalitarians.” The problem of Nazis and Imperial Japan was that they threatened Western Imperial power, including the occupation of France.
Otherwise, the Allies would have taken out fascist Franco when they had the chance, but they didn’t. They would have traded with Hitler if he stayed in his borders, they would have ignored the Japanese if they didn’t attack Pearl Harbour.
alexctinn on
The only “good” guys could be considered the neutral states that were forced into war, although many of them committed terrible crimes, e.g romania, yugoslavia, czechia, Greece and colonial states
IronVader501 on
There are very, very few situations in World-history were there was a clearly right and a clearly wrong side, but like…….
if anyone ever says WW2 isnt on that list, immidieatly cease all contact.
The Allies did things that were arguably morally wrong with hindsight, sure, but its still not even REMOTELY close
Private_4160 on
Anyone making an argument that the Allies weren’t better than the Axis cannot at the same time suggest they don’t wish the Axis won. If one suggests they’re equally bad then it wouldn’t matter to that person who won.
War is fucked up now let’s build a weapon to surpass Metal Gear.
380-mortis on
I don’t think people realize both statements can be true, many allied atrocities did occur but are largely overlooked/covered up because we won and they lost. Morality was clearly a secondary goal for the allies in WW2, not even just the atrocities during the war, but many Nazis took up positions in science (Op. Paperclip for example), many took positions in NATO. The allies were not good, rarely is there a “good” side in war, rather a less bad side, and the only reason people think the allies were “good” is because the victors write the history. Sure, there are wehraboos but they are the vast minority of the population. The only pro Nazi myth that comes to mind that is even remotely popular is the clean Wehrmacht, which was indeed penned by the likes of Manstein and Guderian, but that is the exception and not the rule.
Regarding allied atrocities, I remember a bombing map of cities in Germany during WW2 (by the way, the first air raids on Berlin occurred before the blitz even started), a very large amount of cities were mostly destroyed, not only Dresden but other cities. There is Katyn, there are the internment camps, there was the large amount of rapes and plundering, and the massacres of PoWs. There crimes weren’t only perpetrated against Germany or Japan, the Goumiers in Italy were infamous for kidnapping, raping, and murdering women of all ages inc. elderly and children. None of these acts can be construed as “good”, and you also have to remember that the allies were still colonial powers. Not only during in WW2 but in general they weren’t good. But really, how many of these are in the public conscience? Do you want to know why they aren’t?
Some people may say “Nazis worse” but that is completely irrelevant and not the point, crimes are crimes, murder is murder, rape is rape. Innocents are still, well, innocent. Better ≠ good.
History is not black and white, but imo unfortunately the rise of social media and such influencing views on history has generally polarized people to the extremes. I’d disagree with the meme and the comment section, history is always complex and you should always look deeper in issues such as these which are still being debated today.
Raptori33 on
Who’s the “a” ?
JacobMT05 on
Both can be true at the same time.
> History is very complex
Completely true.
> History is written by the victors
Sometimes true, usually written by the survivors though. Not just the victors
> the allies were the good guys
Of course. Their policies were never intentionally meant to cause mass deaths, when mass deaths did happen (bengal) it was an accident by poor management.
> the axis were the bad guys
Of course. Their policies would intentionally cause mass death, holocaust, china and Ethiopia
AestheticNoAzteca on
*”To be good, it is not enough to be better than the worst”*
SM1OOO on
ww1 was morally grey, both sides did horrible things to each other, ww2 was as black and white as the world gets
fatherandyriley on
“Hans, have you noticed that our caps have little pictures of skulls on them?”
25 Comments
I mean… kinda obvious considering the Axis literally had the Nazis and Imperial Japan
As a former Neonazi, yeah. But, things are not so simple with World War 1.
Axis leaders were [noticeably wacky](https://i.imgur.com/9EF6kmU.png)
WW2 was one of the very few cases in history where there is a *clear* bad guy
Surely takes guts to look at Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany and say ”this situation is morally grey”
Sometimes history is complex and sometimes its more obvious.
The nazis were bad yes that’s a cold take.
But were the allies good? Hard no, maybe significantly less bad.
I mean, guys we’re not talking about Star Wars here this way of thinking is actually pretty stupid.
*laughs in german in NATO hq*
Objectively better? Yes, definitely.
Good? No.
Well yeah America, China, Britain, (free) France, the commonwealth Poland and all of the gouvernement in exile (Belgium, Norway, Holland etc) were cleary good guys and they had the most moral high ground.
But then there the Soviet union which sometime does blurr the line on who were the good and bad guys in ww2..
However i do believe that the Average soviet (either partisans or regular) were in the right to defend their homeland and family during the invasion.
Edit: oh boy it started..
Who’s ever said WW2 was morally grey? (Besides Holocaust deniers?)
The human desire to create simple macrocategories for absolutely everything is the bane of my existence. The allies acted in self interest, and that is all.
The Allies were only United in their goal to stop evil from conquering the world
The crimes of the allies were civil bombing, rape and killing, Hiroshima + Nagasaki
The crimes of the Axis were all of the above (except Hiroshima and Nagasaki) + ethnic genocide and human experiments. So yeah, the allies were the good ones
Lots of wars are morally Grey and based primarily or solely on the whims of the ruling class of either side. WW2 was not one of those wars
Finland (Axis) vs USSR (Allies)
WW2 was an imperialist war. It wasn’t about “good democracy and bad totalitarians.” The problem of Nazis and Imperial Japan was that they threatened Western Imperial power, including the occupation of France.
Otherwise, the Allies would have taken out fascist Franco when they had the chance, but they didn’t. They would have traded with Hitler if he stayed in his borders, they would have ignored the Japanese if they didn’t attack Pearl Harbour.
The only “good” guys could be considered the neutral states that were forced into war, although many of them committed terrible crimes, e.g romania, yugoslavia, czechia, Greece and colonial states
There are very, very few situations in World-history were there was a clearly right and a clearly wrong side, but like…….
if anyone ever says WW2 isnt on that list, immidieatly cease all contact.
The Allies did things that were arguably morally wrong with hindsight, sure, but its still not even REMOTELY close
Anyone making an argument that the Allies weren’t better than the Axis cannot at the same time suggest they don’t wish the Axis won. If one suggests they’re equally bad then it wouldn’t matter to that person who won.
War is fucked up now let’s build a weapon to surpass Metal Gear.
I don’t think people realize both statements can be true, many allied atrocities did occur but are largely overlooked/covered up because we won and they lost. Morality was clearly a secondary goal for the allies in WW2, not even just the atrocities during the war, but many Nazis took up positions in science (Op. Paperclip for example), many took positions in NATO. The allies were not good, rarely is there a “good” side in war, rather a less bad side, and the only reason people think the allies were “good” is because the victors write the history. Sure, there are wehraboos but they are the vast minority of the population. The only pro Nazi myth that comes to mind that is even remotely popular is the clean Wehrmacht, which was indeed penned by the likes of Manstein and Guderian, but that is the exception and not the rule.
Regarding allied atrocities, I remember a bombing map of cities in Germany during WW2 (by the way, the first air raids on Berlin occurred before the blitz even started), a very large amount of cities were mostly destroyed, not only Dresden but other cities. There is Katyn, there are the internment camps, there was the large amount of rapes and plundering, and the massacres of PoWs. There crimes weren’t only perpetrated against Germany or Japan, the Goumiers in Italy were infamous for kidnapping, raping, and murdering women of all ages inc. elderly and children. None of these acts can be construed as “good”, and you also have to remember that the allies were still colonial powers. Not only during in WW2 but in general they weren’t good. But really, how many of these are in the public conscience? Do you want to know why they aren’t?
Some people may say “Nazis worse” but that is completely irrelevant and not the point, crimes are crimes, murder is murder, rape is rape. Innocents are still, well, innocent. Better ≠ good.
History is not black and white, but imo unfortunately the rise of social media and such influencing views on history has generally polarized people to the extremes. I’d disagree with the meme and the comment section, history is always complex and you should always look deeper in issues such as these which are still being debated today.
Who’s the “a” ?
Both can be true at the same time.
> History is very complex
Completely true.
> History is written by the victors
Sometimes true, usually written by the survivors though. Not just the victors
> the allies were the good guys
Of course. Their policies were never intentionally meant to cause mass deaths, when mass deaths did happen (bengal) it was an accident by poor management.
> the axis were the bad guys
Of course. Their policies would intentionally cause mass death, holocaust, china and Ethiopia
*”To be good, it is not enough to be better than the worst”*
ww1 was morally grey, both sides did horrible things to each other, ww2 was as black and white as the world gets
“Hans, have you noticed that our caps have little pictures of skulls on them?”